Episode 08: Unanswerable Questions, Unquestionable Answers

In this episode, it’s 1692 and Caitlin and Francesgrace find themselves on opposite sides of the sharp divide between the Witches and the Hanging Judge. Welcome to Salem.

LINK TO SHOW NOTES

Season 1. Episode 8. Unanswerable Questions, Unquestionable Answers.

Caitlin: Hello, and welcome to Grave Escapes, the podcast helps those who've died tell their stories once again.

INTRO MUSIC

Caitlin: Hey Frances.

Frances: Hey.

Caitlin: I thought we would start off this episode by actually giving our listeners a little inside information, which you probably all already know, but I think it'll be fun for this episode to remind you. So Frances and I actually never meet before we record these to talk about what we're going to talk about. We’re each given a topic. Most of the time we try to have them similar theme, but then we react. And so you're actually hearing us react in lifetime. And this one is going to be a very interesting one because Frances and I have picked a topic we're both fascinated by and a topic that I feel like is grossly misunderstood.

Frances: Yeah. Truth.

Caitlin: Slash like Nye-on, impossible to prove real things about.

Frances: Also true.

Caitlin: So ladies and gentlemen, today, we're going to be talking about this little, hardly known historical event called the Salem Witch Trials. I want to get started by saying Salem is one of my favorite cities on this planet.

Frances: Salem is the only city that I have never gotten lost in. And I am including my hometown in that list.

Caitlin: I’m…I’m concerned, but proud. Proud came first, but then deep concern has I started thinking about it.

Frances: I'm terrible with directions, but for whatever reason, Salem is very intuitive.

Caitlin: It's fun. It is very kitschy witchy. I love everything about it.

Frances: Yes.

Caitlin: But I'm saying that because I want to start this conversation with Salem that we have today, that is Salem, Massachusetts is not really the Salem that we're talking about in the olden times.

Frances: Yes.

Caitlin: So Salem Proper, we will be talking about, and that is what I'm going to call. The city of Salem is Salem Proper. We are going to mention this towards the end, but most of the actual trials took place in Salem Village, a place that is now known as Peobody—That is not Pea-body. Everyone it’s Peab’dy—Massachusetts and Danvers, Massachusetts. And why don't we know Danvers?

Frances: Doesn't that place sound familiar?

Caitlin: So if you were following us for a while, we also did an episode on the Danaher's state lunatic asylum, and, yeah, same place kind of what inspired us to dive deeper into this.

So Frances decided that instead of doing one person, she would actually take an opposition to the persons I would do. So I'm going to be talking to you all about the witches tonight, air quotes.

Frances: And I've got the magistrates.

Caitlin: Oh…let’s…let's start. So I've selected three at random, but I want to give everyone an overview of numbers. 19 died in the Salem Witch Trials. Those are those who were executed. All right. There was one person who was not executed for their crimes. There were many people who did die in jail. There were a few infants who died in jail. We'll get to that. And over 200 were accused. So,

Frances: And they weren't even all in Salem—Any kind of Salem—it spread as far, like it's spread to Boston.

Caitlin: It spread to it was…it started was ostensibly—and I am being really shitty about this—two little girls were like: oh, we're having all of these like physical issues, which some people have come up with the idea that they were actually being exposed to like a chemical when it was causing it. I'm calling shenanigans. You were just being little shits.

Frances: My favorite theory actually is that it was a kind of manifestation of a group trauma, because there were so many refugees coming back from the frontier where the indigenous populations were brutally attacking the settlers—for reasons. And so the refugees were coming back with severe PTSD and being placed in the households where the accusers were from. So the first two girls, their cousin Mercy was a refugee. And so it was this sort of group trauma that just kind of spread out of control.

Caitlin: Oh my God.

Frances: That's my favorite theory. Shout out to Mary Beth Norton's In The Devil's Snare.

Caitlin: I think I'm just going to entitle this podcast, the Salem witch trials, colon: Everyone was terrible.

Frances: Yeah. Everything sucked.

Caitlin: So anyway, these two little girls, they have what’s ostensibly an indentured servant slash slave living in their home. Whose name is Tituba. This is very important because Tituba comes out with all these stories. For example, she made pee-cakes to help the girls get better. Just look that one up on your own. Please don't make it. Don't make it. But I want to point out something. Tituba is one of the first three accused and she has never convicted.

Just want to say it's a little sus considering she also exclaimed that she had signed her name in the devil's book, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I'm not saying she was manipulated. I'm just heavily implying it.

Frances: She was the only one of the first set who confessed, right?

Caitlin: Yeah. And she was like, oh my God, I did it everyone! Like I…argh…Anyway, Frances, do you know the other two who are initially accused?

Frances: I know one of them, I know Sarah Goode was one of the initial accused.

Caitlin: And that's actually who I'm going to be talking about next awesome socks. It was very hard to have to narrow down who talk about. So the three people who were first accused, we have Tituba who confesses, nothing ever happens. Again. That's suspicious. That's weird anyway, but I want to talk about Sarah Goode. And I tried to choose the people that I'm going to speak of today because I think each of them has a fascinating story. And I think might give you an idea of why I believe the Witch Trials happen.

So first and foremost, let's talk about Sarah Goode. Frances, what do you know about Sarah Goode?

Frances: Because I did a little bit of research into Nicholas Noyes, I know a little bit about the end of her life and because I listened to a podcast episode on witchcraft and in the 17th century England, I know that she was destitute or basically on the dole.

Caitlin: Yeah. So this is why I actually chose to speak about her. So to the best of our knowledge, again, these records are for lack of a better word, pure shit. And just because of the time that they were kept and also how much has been tried to lift her, tried to cover up.

Frances: Stick a pin…Yeah. Stick a pin in the lack of records, real quick. We'll come back to that.

Caitlin: So born 1653, she does die in 1692 because she is hanged for being a witch. So at the time of her death, she's probably 39ish. My heart breaks for this story. She was the daughter of a Tavern owner. They were actually doing pretty well financially. And when she's 16, he kills himself, her father.

Frances: That's sad.

Caitlin: He doesn't leave a will.

Frances: Oh, no.

Caitlin: And her family were involved with a lot of land disputes, which is a continuing theme with all of this. The estate becomes divided between his widow and his male sons.

Frances: Mhm.

Caitlin: Yeah. She has no dowry, no prospects. The only thing that she gets is she gets offered marriage to an indentured servant who she does marry, and then he dies.

Frances: Oh no.

Caitlin: And it turns out he owed a fuck ton of money. And so the very little amount of money that she had from her father's suicide, she loses because it has to go to her husband's creditors.

Frances: That is the actual worst.

Caitlin: So then she gets married again, which good for her. Uh, she is married to William Goode. Thus Sarah Goode. And they have nothing. They are completely, like you said, destitute they're homeless and they were beggars when they needed to be. So what happens with Sarah is she starts to get this reputation for muttering.

Frances: Oh, that's a problem in Puritan New England.

Caitlin: And being unpleasant as well as having just a bad reputation for being mean and ungrateful.

Frances: Also a problem in Puritan New England.

Caitlin: Samuel and Mary Abby apparently decided to house her for some time and they gave this quote, she was so turbulent to spirits, spiteful, and so maliciously bent that they had put her out.

Frances: Awesome.

Caitlin: Now I want to…I want to say there are…there again, a lot of this is kind of hearsay. I'm sorry. They're very hard things to document because this is 1690s, but apparently, Samuel Goode was just like, oh yeah, she's horrible. Which when they asked her why she had never attended church, she was like, we couldn't afford the proper attire.

Frances: Ah, that's legit.

Caitlin: So the two little girls, let's go back to them. If you would like to know their names, they were Abigail Williams and Elizabeth Parris. One of them who was related to the Reverend at the time,

Frances: Samuel Parris.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Frances: Who was a jerk!

Caitlin: They all were jerks.

Frances: That's true.

Caitlin: Apparently there's some like crucible level dramatic scene where they're like, who torments you and the girls are like, oh, it's Tituba, Sarah Osborne and Sarah Osgood. So you have these two girls, one who is related to Reverend D ickhead over there and they make the first accusations. Now this is actually really confusing. I got confused by this, the first three who were accused Tituba, again she kind of runs off, Sarah Goode, and Sarah Osborne, but the first person to be executed is Bridget Bishop. So…

Frances: I might actually have an explanation for that.

Caitlin: I would love one

Frances: Salem in Massachusetts Bay Colony…During this time the Massachusetts Bay Colony had lost its charter. So it was operating under a provisional government. They'd sent a delegation to England, to re-acquire a charter because of a bunch of like British upheavals and things. And so they were actually operating without a charter, which means they couldn't try capital offenses. All of the accusations… all of the arrests couldn't be tried until the new charter arrived. It didn't arrive until May. Any accusations made from February until May couldn't be tried until the charter arrived.

Caitlin: Well, that's interesting. Okay. Maybe, maybe that is it. It's not Rhode Island Vampire Panic. It's Salem Massachusetts Witch Panic

Frances: Truth.

Caitlin: Okay. Not great still, but, so we've got Sarah Goode, who is accused. I don't love this, but she does try to throw Tituba and Osborne under the bus. And is like, they're the real witches! It's like, sure…William Goode does testify against her. Like I said, he said that he disliked her demeanor.

Frances: Why did you marry her?

Caitlin: And then she didn't meet his expectations for a wife.

Frances: Ouch. Oof.

Caitlin: Tituba is actually one of the big problems here. Cause at this point, Goode and Osborne had been like, we're not witches. And Tituba is like, oh, I was forced to write my name in the book.

Frances: Sure.

Caitlin: Because good and Osborne forced me to, there were six other names in the book, but they weren't visible.

Frances: Hmm.

Caitlin: She then said that she saw Sarah Goode with black and yellow birds surrounding her. And that good sends these animals to harm people.

Frances: Solid.

Caitlin: Then the girls started pretending to have, sorry…The girls started having fits in the courtroom and they started talking about, they're seeing the yellow birds and you get the idea. She's convicted of witchcraft and sentenced to death. She is hung along with four other women.

Frances: There is a legend because I was looking at Nicholas Noyes. There is a legend. Have you heard the legend about what she said upon her death?

Caitlin: No.

Frances: Okay. So apparently during the like tail end of the process, I'm not sure if it was like on the gallows or before that Sarah Goode actually said accused Nicholas Noyes, who was one of the Reverends, of being a liar and said, quote, “I am no more a witch than you are a wizard and if you take away my life, God will give you blood to drink.” Twenty-three years later, he died of a brain hemorrhage choking on his own blood. She was right.

Caitlin: So was she a witch ?

Frances: So she wasn't a witch, right? Cause she was executed. God gave him blood to drink. They took away her life and God gave them a blood to drink. Cheers. Good for you, Sarah Goode.

Caitlin: Wow. All right.

Frances: That's my favorite. That's one of my favorite stories from The Salem Witch Trials.

Caitlin: If you're going to curse someone, that's the way to do it.

Frances: Oh yeah.

Caitlin: So what did I miss since you've had kind of a deep dive into Sarah as well? I mean, I feel like not as much known about her, she wasn't a pleasant person, but also hadn't done anything wrong really. She had been dealt a really shitty hand.

Frances: She had, but in Puritan New England things like poverty and muttering and like a poor disposition actually indicated that you were not among God's Chosen. And so there is a strong chance that you might be of the devil, especially the muttering, because it was considered like cursing or potentially like speaking with spirits or whatever.

Caitlin: Add that to the list of another place I just would have been brutally murdered.

Frances: Oh, I would have been dead, like immediately in Puritan New England, but also I went to a Quaker school and Quakers were executed for being Quaker. So everything's the worst.

Caitlin: Oh my God.

Frances: Yeah. So she, yeah…And, and being ungrateful for charity was another, another mark of like not being saved.

Caitlin: She was probably just embarrassed.

Frances: Oh yeah. You're supposed to be properly grateful to people for giving you food so you wouldn't die.

Caitlin: Wow. Whatever. So, yeah, not a bad person, not a good hand in life killed. Now my next one is I think one of the most famous out of all the quote-unquote witches, and as the only person who actually did not die, which…

Frances: I love this person so much.

Caitlin: Might want to pump the brakes on that

Frances: Is…if this is the person, I think you're talking about

Caitlin: This is Giles Corey.

Frances: Yeah. He was such a grump though. Like I love him such a weirdo.

Caitlin: I'm going to ask you what your thoughts are in just a minute.

Frances: Did he beat his wife? I feel like now he beat his wife.

Caitlin: Just give me a second.

Frances: Okay. Sorry.

Caitlin: Born 1611ish.

Frances: Oo. Old.

Caitlin: Yeah. He actually dies at 81.

Frances: Okay.

Caitlin: He was British. He was born in England. He's been recorded in a parish record. He had…sorry, he's a terrible guy.

Frances: Okay. Literally, all I know about him is how he died and how he died is pretty badass.

Caitlin: Oh, he has…Yes. Yes. I agree. He has three wives, which this is common. Like everyone has on their second or third spouse by the time we get through with this podcast. So he marries Martha and they're there…They're whatever, everything's fine. They're living their lives. Even before the Witch Trials happen…Cory beats one of his indentured farm workers.

Frances: Oh, what?

Caitlin: He beats him so hard, he puts him like inches from death and then doesn't get him medical attention for over 10 days and he dies.

Frances: What?!

Caitlin: And so corporal punishment at the time…again, these are people who, who killed people because they thought they were witches. Corporal punishment was permitted,

Frances: Yeah, but that's not a corporal punishment. That's murder.

Caitlin: Basically, because this person was property, he was considered to be exempt from murder, but they charged him with using unreasonable force.

Frances: True.

Caitlin: Multiple people testified against him, including the coroner. He was found guilty and he was fined.

Frances: He was fined. He wasn't in prison? He was fined?

Caitlin: Right?

Frances: Awesome.

Caitlin: So this time he was actually still married to his second wife, Mary, she dies.

Frances: How? Did he beat her to death?

Caitlin: I mean, she…it was olden times. She'd just die. I’m sure she just walked outside. So then he married his third wife, like I said, this is Martha. Her maiden name is rich.

Frances: Okay.

Caitlin: They're not married incredibly long. They get married in 1690.

Frances: Oh.

Caitlin: He dies in 1692. So what ends up happening is that his wife is arrested first.

Frances: Yeah. I knew that.

Caitlin: And he's like, yeah, that makes sense.

Frances: Okay. Why? What is with all these guys being like, yeah, my wife's a witch.

Caitlin: Hold on. I've got one where it's not like that, but it took some digging. So he's like, yeah, that, that makes sense. Then he does come around and apparently he's like, oh wait, that's terrible. I should…I should just say that she's not a witch. So at that point it's too late and everyone is like, well, she's not a witch, you're a witch. That kind of thing.

Frances: Which, yeah, that makes complete sense.

Caitlin: Now I have to say why more Martha, his wife had actually been accused. She was very, very critical of the girls who kept accusing.

Frances: Which, good for her.

Caitlin: She called them hysterical children apparently accurate. And she apparently gets this…whatever, like she gets this accusation and she's just like: oh, that's fine. I'm just going to tell them what's really going on. And they'll be like, oh, you're fine. You're not a witch. Uh, that did not happen.

Frances: No.

Caitlin: She’s convicted.

Frances: Yeah…

Caitlin: We go to Giles now…Giles while he starting to recant just slightly, he's accused of being a witch. And now this is where the badassness comes along. But I don't know if you know why… what happens is badass. I don't know if you know why it's even moreso.

Frances: I don't know. Tell me.

Caitlin: I just learned this. I think this is fascinating. So he is accused and he is arrested and they ask him, what is his plea? And he refuses to play.

Frances: Yeah.

Caitlin: So they say: well, you have to. You have to plead guilty or not guilty. And he's like, no. And he just keeps refusing. Well, in Massachusetts at that time to avoid this situation and making sure someone gives a plea, they allow for torture.

Frances: Party.

Caitlin: Giles Corey would have been stripped naked. Again, he's 81. And then he would be laid between two boards and then he would have rocks pressed on him. What ends up happening is they put the rocks on what do you plea? And he just replies back more weight.

Frances: Awesome.

Caitlin: Over and over and over for three days.

Frances: It was three days? I thought it was only two. Holy crap. I mean 81 or something.

Caitlin: He does die. He, however, didn't have that plan. Right. So you wonder what that means?

Frances: I think I know, but tell me anyway.

Caitlin: So he hasn't entered this plea and this is a big deal because he is not awaiting trial and because he hasn't been convicted and because he is not quote unquote guilty, all of his property remains intact.

Frances: Yeah.

Caitlin: This means that his heirs get the property and I feel like he knew he was going to die. So he just saved everything. That being said, his wife dies by hanging three days later.

Frances: Awesome.

Caitlin: Of course, Giles is famously known for the more weight line. Yeah, I do want to say that there is some speculation that he didn't actually say that, but fuck it. I like that better for moving on.

Frances: Yeah. Legit.

Caitlin: There is also a legend about him. Do you know that one?

Frances: I don’t. Tell me.

Caitlin: I like spooky things. So I think this is cool. According to local legend, apparently his ghost appears and walks over a graveyard. Anytime. A disaster's about to strike the city. Apparently he was seen before the Salem fire of 1914.

Frances: Yikes.

Caitlin: And apparently he also cursed the sheriff of the town. Yeah. So since the person who arrested him, every single sheriff of excess to Essex county has either died or resigned as a heart, have a heart or blood ailments.

Frances: Oh, what?

Caitlin: Yeah.

Frances: Okay. Seriously though, these accused…these accused, they’re all leveling actual curses on people.

Caitlin: I'm here for it.

Frances: Me too.

Caitlin: So my last one is probably the most famous of them all. And that is John Proctor.

Frances: Aww. I was in The Crucible in high school and…

Caitlin: Were you really?

Frances: I was. I played John…I played John Hale, Reverend Hale.

Caitlin: Oh my God.

Frances: But the girl who played John Proctor, like that whole cast was great, but yeah, that's a good show.

Caitlin: Was that in the cult that you were a part of?

Frances: It was in the cult I was part of. The  all girls cult, so the whole cast was female.

Caitlin: Love that. Anyway…So I want…I bring up John Proctor because I think he's a great juxtaposition to Sarah Goode and to Giles Corey and his wife, Martha.

Frances: Word.

Caitlin: John Proctor's wife is accused.

Frances: As a quick aside, the final scene in The Crucible, I'm pretty sure, is a goody Proctor and Reverend Hale on the stage together. And I was like on the floor beating my chest, being like: this is all my fault. And she's just standing there pregnant, watching her husband to be executed in the distance. And I was like, oh yeah…Sorry. This was a good scene.

Caitlin: Bonus episode: Frances just reads all of the parts of the crucible.

Frances: Sorry, this is a good scene though.

Caitlin: No, no, it totally is. Love us some Arthur Miller.

Frances: Yeah.

Caitlin: John Proctor's wife is accused and he's like: no, absolutely not. So he becomes very, very outspoken and starts expressing his disbelief in all of the accusers. And then of course from you: like ha you're a witch and he's like, damn it. I couldn't have seen that coming.
Anyway. He actually starts challenging what's happening, including what is called spectral evidence.

Frances: Yeah.

Caitlin: Spectral evidence for those of you out there who don't know, it's basically those girls being like, oh, we see birds and they're attacking me and stuff like that, or, oh, she's touching me or, oh, I see the devil.

That's why people died. It’s because they just lied. We have her accused and we have him accused. He has defended her. A lot of people are getting in with this. Proctor actually writes to the church in Boston as well as to, I believe the governor.

Frances: Okay.

Caitlin: Also fun little aside for you, apparently Proctor and Cory hated each other because Proctor was like, you lit my house on fire. And Corey is like, no, I didn't. Spoiler alert, he actually hadn't. So anyway, they…the accusations have come, Proctor ends up having a petition signed by his neighbors to basically be like, no, he's not a witch. He's super active in the church. It was even stated that he lived a Christian life with his family.

They were both tried and found guilty. I honestly feel like you should just say why Elizabeth is special, but real quick. So Proctor is killed. And this is one of the things that I want to kind of chat about is that John is actually believed to be buried on the family farm.

Frances: Oh, cool.

Caitlin: And this is where I want to start talking about graves, but Frances, what happened to Elizabeth Proctor?

Frances: Did she plead her belly?

Caitlin: She was pregnant.

Frances: Yup.

Caitlin: With John's child.

Frances: Yep.

Caitlin: Has the child and is actually released and she lives.

Frances: Yeah. This whole situation flared really hot really quick, but it flared out relatively quickly as well.

Caitlin: It was within about nine months.

Frances: Yep. It was February of what we think of as 1692 to January of 1693,

Caitlin: A little longer than I thought.

Frances: But yeah… but that's because, so nobody was tried until May and then the governor at one point was like: JK, we're done with this. You're not doing this anymore. He dissolved the Court of Oyer in Terminer and then all of the remaining convicted where held for a little while and then retried by an actual superior…special court in January. And most of them were acquitted. And then the ones who were convicted were pardoned anyway. So they were just all released.

Caitlin: So let's talk about where they're buried.

Frances: Yes. I know nothing.

Caitlin: No one does actually.

Frances: Awesome.

Caitlin: I want to talk about two things really quick. One Giles Corey. We actually do have a guest at where he is buried, where the jails stood next to it, was adjacent field, which is where he was pressed to death. So the thought is actually that they just like dug a hole and stuck in bed. And funny enough, that is a current working cemetery.

Frances: Oh, that's cool.

Caitlin: Then Proctor, they think that someone took his body and buried it, but do we know why we don't know where these people are?

Frances: Because they were witches.

Caitlin: No, exactly. They were not allowed to have Christian burial, which meant no tombstones.

Frances: Witches!

Caitlin: Most likely what happened is they were buried in a mass grave. A lot of people actually suspect it's in Danvers, right around where the lunatic asylum is.

Frances: Ahhh.

Caitlin: That's fun. But the reason that I chose the witches for this is because there's actually been follow up to all of this. So again, this is 1692 to just the beginning of 1693, by the time 1709 rolls around most of the family and friends of those who died have actually been given reparations.

Frances: Yeah.

Caitlin: If they just flat out sued.

Frances: Yup.

Caitlin: On top of that, it takes nearly 300 years.

Frances: Yup.

Caitlin: But everyone is finally posthumously.

Frances: Yep. 2001. I remember seeing it on the TV.

Caitlin: Yeah, me too.

Frances: And being like, what is happening?

Caitlin: I mean, but damn so in the early two thousands as well, right after everyone has pardoned, the city of Salem Proper is how I'm defining this, they erect a Memorial. It's kind of confusing if you were from out of town because the cemetery is in the memorials in the middle of the city. And it is next to a very, very old cemetery. However, none of the witches are buried there. The family descendants, I think there might be one or two, but there's actually really no one in connection because remember Salem Proper is not where all of this happened.

Frances: Yup. The which city is not where the witches were from.

Caitlin: Exactly. Sorry, sorry, Salem. We're not trying to like kill your PR. I will literally come there every day if I could. Love you.

Frances: Yeah.

Caitlin: We don't know where these are, but this Memorial is creepy.

Frances: Oh yeah?

Caitlin: I love it. I actually really love it.

Frances: I don't, I've never seen it in person as far as I know.

Caitlin: I'll take you immediately. Let's just start right now.

Frances: Sounds good.

Caitlin: They're benches, jutting out wall for each of the people who was hanged.

Frances: Oh, yikes. 19 benches.

Caitlin: Yeah. And I mean, you it's like a full Memorial, so you actually walk into it and you walk in on each of the like Memorial plaques is the name of the person who was executed with their birth dates. Some of them have quotes on them too.

Frances: Oh, that's cool. Oh my God. I hope Sarah Goode’s says God will give you blood to drink.

Caitlin: We're going to get that on a t-shirt for you.

Frances: Yeahhh!

Caitlin: So it's interesting to me because these are quote, unquote bodies we've lost to time. And this Memorial is brand new, acknowledging something that happened 300 years before.

Frances: Yeah.

Caitlin: It’s insane. Okay. I'm almost scared to ask this because I know where you're going. I was fully in fantasyland with all of this, because most of this, like I said, it's hearsay. It's all legend. I love looking at Wikipedia pages when we're about to start something, to see what people have written and almost all the information was conflicting.

Frances: Oh yeah.

Caitlin: It was amazing. Someone actually wrote on Wikipedia that Corey defends wife and there's so many sources that were like, no, that does not happen. But so you, Frances, decided to take on who for this episode?

Frances: I picked the magistrates mostly because well…I was John Hale one time and because at the core of my being, I hate Cotton Mather.

Caitlin: Okay.

Frances: So consuming really much and have for decades.

Caitlin: I’m good with that. Tell me, tell me about this.

Frances: I actually might hate him marginally less, now. I still hate him.

Caitlin: Well, what…because? I guess just tell me, just tell me.

Frances: Let's start with Cotton Mather. Let's start with good old Cotton. He is born…He's actually 29 at the time of the Salem Witch Trials.

Caitlin: Wait, so there were children, they were children prosecuting the elders of the…

Frances: Here's a fun fact. He wasn't even there.

Caitlin: Oh!

Frances: Yeah. I learned this. I was completely shocked by this. He actually didn’t…he attended one of the executions, George Burroughs.

Caitlin: Okay.

Frances: But that was the only part of the trials, of the whole process that he had anything directly to do with. Because his father Increase Mather…

Caitlin: Wait! Increase?

Frances: Increase Mather.

Caitlin: Like as in to get bigger?

Frances: Yes.

Caitlin: All right.

Frances: Oh, colonial names.

Caitlin: Hello? I am Increase. Oh yes, you are.

Frances: You think that's bad? There's a guy whose name was, If-God-hath…If-Christ-hath-not-died-for-me-I-shall-be-damned Barebone.

Caitlin: That must be really hard. If he's like in the way of a carriage or something, and they've gotta scream at hi to get out of the way…

Frances: His nickname was Damned.

Caitlin: Damned Bare—Oh, he's dead.

Frances: Yeah. Some of them, some of these colonial names are like, Ooh, okay…That's a…that’s a person.

Caitlin: I wanna find an online…like a Buzzfeed quiz: what would your colonial name be? And it'd probably be like, you're a woman. They killed you immediately.

Frances: I know my colonial name was Freelove.

Caitlin: Okay. I like that. You can be Freelove. I'll be like, I don't know, Lucy. Just something.

Frances: That was a colonial name.

Caitlin: Yeah, it was. So you could be like this Freelove person and then Lucy or like Sarah it's like, yeah. Okay. I got it. I'm a white chick.

Frances: Yeah. So Cotton Mather is dad, Increase, was actually…Actually, you know, that's getting ahead of me, so let's go back to his childhood. So he is the oldest of Increase’s 10 children. Increase actually married his stepsister, whose last name was Cotton. So he was Increase Mather and his step-sister I think, I can't remember the first name. Mary, maybe? Cotton. They got married, had 10 kids. First one's name is Cotton Mather.

He is considered his father's heir. He is considered a child prodigy and a genius. He starts praying at like writing his own prayers at three, I believe.

Caitlin: Like…

Frances: Or four.

Caitlin: Years old?

Frances: Yup. The first thing…he learned how to read really young and started reading the Bible like immediately.

Caitlin: Yes, I too have religious trauma. Call me.

Frances: So much trauma. This guy, he was messed in the head. He actually attends Harvard at 11 and a half. The average age of Harvard attendance at this time is somewhere between say 16 and 18.

Caitlin: You guys can't see it, obviously, because this is a podcast, but I literally just did the math meme face.

Frances: So he's 11 and a half, when he attends Harvard, he completes a degree in theology there, gets out and starts preaching at 16. That is two years earlier than his father Increase. Who's considered the preeminent theologian in the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

Caitlin: Oh. So someone had some daddy issues.

Frances: He had so many daddy issues. Oh my God. His dad was apparently like very devoted to his children in a cerebral way, but also cloistered himself in his office doing theology 16 hours a day. So like very absent.

Caitlin: A real good dude.

Frances: Apparently most of what Cotton did in his life was him being like religion! Hey dad, did you see? I did a thing.

Caitlin: Oh, wow. So he invented daddy issues.

Frances: Oh yeah. And then his dad being like, I couldn't see you son. I was reading the Bible, the whole time,

Caitlin: Not going to lie. I think my dad said that to me.

Frances: So that…it was a whole thing. So he gives his first sermon at 16. He becomes he is actually received a master's degree at 19 and is very shortly thereafter ordained and starts as like an under minister at his father's very famous church in Boston. Basically, anytime Increase was a way or busy with like whatever he was busy with a government thing. Cotton would preach the sermon for the week to the parish. He would do like outreach kind of things and he'd do parishioner visits and a lot of stuff.

He had a lot of mental health issues. Let's go with that.

Caitlin: Yeah. It sounds like it. So I kind of want to know, if he ever showed up somewhere and they were like, Hey, Decrease.

Frances: Oh God, I wish. That would have been great. Apparently…so one of the books, I don't usually truck with like modern historians, diagnosing people who've been dead for 300 years, but one of the books I read suggested that he might have had bipolar, based on his diaries. He was an avid diarist.

Caitlin: That's a fun word.

Frances: Right? He wrote a diary starting, in I think it was like 1674 and religiously kept one until his. And I guess in his diary, he would go from like a melancholic to I'm being visited by angels.

Caitlin: Oh.

Frances: Yeah. He was a little…a little emotionally unstable, it seems like. He developed a stutter in his early twenties and so went back to study like medicine and science, because he was afraid he wouldn't be able to be a preacher anymore. And then some guy was like, Hey, maybe talk slower. And it worked. And then he stopped studying medicine. I don't know, whatever it was a whole thing.

He gets married three separate times. His first two wives die and he has 15 children. Six live to adulthood and by the time of his death, there are only two left.

Caitlin: Oh shit.

Frances: So that's a whole thing. Uh, he was obsessed with the religious fervor of the colony. So like most of the people at the time, he was afraid that actually…like John…like several of the other people, I'm going to talk about two of the other two people I'm going to talk about…He was afraid that religion was declining in the colonies. Religious devotion was declining.

Puritanism was…people were getting lax with their beliefs and with their practices. He was terrified of witchcraft, which was a genuine fear for many people in the colonies at this time. It was like…it would be like now being afraid of the stock market crashing or something like it is a thing. It is a definite thing. And it happens.

Caitlin: I am afraid of the stock market crashing. I'm not…

Frances: Yes.

Caitlin: I mean, I invested money because of the Dow Jones episode.

Frances: Nice.

Caitlin: It’s…I've lost money.

Frances: Oh yeah. I stopped looking at my IRA because I'm like, no, no. So, yeah, but like that concept, like it is a concrete thing that could 100% happen. I'm terrified of it.

Okay. So he starts writing on witchcraft. He's obsessed…He's very interested in the idea. In1689, he writes a book on witchcraft, because he got involved with this group of…there were teenagers in Boston who were being afflicted by “a witch.” Hear are the scare quotes. And he swooped in and cured the children of their affliction, the witch was still executed, but he helped cure them of their ‘affliction.’ They were…he had them exercised. It was a whole thing. And he publishes this book in 1689.

Here's a fun fact. The description of the behavior of the children is nearly identical to the description of the accusers…

Caitlin: Huuuuuuuh.

Frances: In Salem in 1692.

Caitlin: Angry.

Frances: Yeah. So he publishes this book, blah, blah, blah. And 1692 rolls around fun fact, i t actually began in 1691 cause the colonies were still on the Julian calendar. And Europe had changed over to the Gregorian calendar, which is what we're on right now. So technically it was 1691 when it started because 1691 lasted until March in the colonies. So modern version, 1692 rolls around and Increase Mather is gone from the colonies. He went to England to help secure the charter, right? So he's not here, which means Cotton takes over the parish and his primary minister to the parish. He cannot leave. He has extensive duties and so much crap going on that no matter how much he wants to and he wants to…he's writing letters, he knows all of the judges. He's all up in their business as much as he can be, but he can't leave. So he doesn't actually, he's not present at any of the things to do with the trials, except for that single execution.

Caitlin: You know what I really hate?

Frances: What?

Caitlin: I see correlation between all the weird behaviors of this Puritan colony in our modern society.

Frances: Oh, 100%.

Caitlin: And it is messing me up.

Frances: Oh, 100%.

Caitlin: Cause like, I really just need people to not be shit.

Frances: Yup. It's a whole.

Caitlin: All right. So this guy is fucking crazy.

Frances: Here's how we fit…Here's how everybody thinks he was there. So Witchcraft Trials ends? Right? 1693. The governor was like nah son because his wife got accused and he's like, I'm done. You're done. This is over. Stop. My wife's not a witch.

So it all ends whatever they release the people. And immediately, Phips goes: no one can know that this happened this way. We can't apologize for it, but it has to be immediately suppressed because if anybody realizes we were wrong, that means that we no longer have the favor of God. We are not a City Upon A Hill. And we… the experiment of puritanism in the colonies has failed.

Caitlin: This is terrible.

Frances: We have to suppress this so that. They prohibit publication of any books on the topic that aren't stationed sanctioned by the state. They expunge the records. So it wasn't that it was 1692 and records were shoddy. Actually, Puritan records are extensive and very well kept. It was that the government destroyed them all.

Caitlin: Oh, wow. Fuck. Great. That makes me mad.

Frances: Yep. So, I mean, there are some records left, but the trial, the actual trial records, they were all destroyed. And as much as they could get their hands on…that’s why we don't have any diaries from the year 1692. There's like one. There is one and it's Samuel Sewell, who was one of the judges. There's like one, even people…there are actual like collections of diaries from people who kept extensive diaries for decades and there's almost always a gap from 1691. Beginning of 16…end of 1691 to 1693.

So it was a whole…it was a group effort. The people were: gonna to shove this under the rug real quick. But Sir William Phips was real good buddies with Increase Mather and his son,  Cotton. And he was like, Hey, maybe you ought to write a book about it. And so Cotton Mather wrote a book called Wonders of the Invisible World, in which he discusses the Salem witch trials and implies very heavily that he was there the whole time. Except he wasn't.

Caitlin: Well, I mean, that seems to be, most of what's been happening here is people just were kind of making up whatever they feel like.

Frances: Yep. So that's why we all think that he was there for the whole thing. He wasn't. But his heavy, his heavy public involvement in the trial, the fact that everybody thought he was there the whole time and very involved with this and this, this publication of Wonders of the Invisible World actually killed his.

He was up for an appointment as, uh, being head of, um, Harvard never got it. He only made like being in charge of his father's Parrish when his father died in 1723, but he only, he only ended up heading that Parrish for five years because he died in 1728.

Caitlin: Wow. What do we know what of?

Frances: No idea.

Caitlin: Cool, great.

Frances: Potential…

Caitlin: Choking on his own blood?

Frances: I don’t…yeah, I have no idea. So he dies in 1728, not sure what he dies of.

Caitlin: Great.

Frances: But that's good, old Cotton. I'm going to skim real quick through John Hale. Just because I had to talk about him cause I was him for a while.

Caitlin: I don't think I've ever met anyone who fangirled over a Salem Judge, but I'm here for it.

Frances: I fangirl over the part cause I loved being in that show. But now that I know more about him. I'm like JK, actually.

Caitlin: Oh, no, I'm sorry that ruined that for you. It's like when you, when you meet your heroes

Frances: Yeah. Never meet…Yeah. Never look up a historical figure you once played in high school because you'll be disappointed. The character of Hale in The Crucible is like a relatively benign sort of witness who ends up remorseful at the end of the show. Yeah. No.

Caitlin: No?

Frances: No.

Caitlin: Not at all?

Frances: A little, not enough.

Caitlin: Not enough.

Frances: Very much. Not enough. All right. So hit me with it. What happens John Hale? He's 56 at the time of the trial.

Caitlin: Okay. So he's similar age to John Proctor.

Frances: Yeah. So he's in his mid fifties. he's basically around the…50 to 60 is the average age of pretty much everybody involved. The magistrates, there were a couple of older ones and a couple of…Cotton who was 29. So he's 56, he's the son of an English blacksmith, who became a deacon and a Boston woman. So his father moves from England to the colonies, marries a woman in Boston. At age 12, his parents take him to the execution of Margaret Jones who was a witch.

Caitlin: What?

Frances: Yep. So, as a 12 year old, he sees the hanging of Margaret Jones. And upon that point is now obsessed 100% all in fixated on witchcraft and spends the rest of his life fixated on witchcraft.

Caitlin: No, but think about it. It's like, you know how all little kids like have a dinosaur phase?

Frances: Yep.

Caitlin: They didn't know about the dinosaurs. So in witchcraft phase…

Frances: He had a witchcraft phrase that he didn't grow out of. And it wasn't like, it wasn't like a benign I'm fascinated by witchcraft, which was kind of… Cotton Mathers was more like “I'm just fascinated by witchcraft” kind of thing.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Frances: John Hale’s was very much like “I am fascinated by witchcraft…”

Caitlin: Yeah. Where they die?

Frances: It was very much, I am fascinated by witchcraft. I need to eradicate it off the face of the earth.

Caitlin: Okay. Yeah. Like, like Witchbusters?

Frances: Yes. Very much Witchbusters.

Caitlin: Call us, we’ll do a movie actually.

Frances: Yes. Can it be the exact same thing, but we just swap out all the ghosts for witches?

Caitlin: Absolutely like, yeah, no, but yeah. Go back to what we're talking about, cause now I just want to talk about this. Go ahead.

Frances: That would be good. So he studied theology at Harvard, like, you know, everyone else in the world.

Caitlin: To be fair, they live in Salem.

Frances: That's true.

Caitlin: It really is Harvard and Salem. Like the Boston area and Salem. They're actually pretty close together.

Frances: Also, it was probably one of the only colleges around at the time.

Caitlin: Fair enough.

Frances: If not the only one and also, also…

Caitlin: Wait wait! What do you mean they didn't go to MIT? Crazy!

Frances: Right? And these were also the elite of the colony, like Winthrop, Mather, every…these are like the cream of the crop kind of thing. So he's studies theology… Actually, he's the only one that I've come across, who actually had like a very lowly beginning, like he son of a blacksmith, not son of the governor or something.

Caitlin: That makes sense.

Frances: So graduates in 57—1657. 10 years later, He's ordained the first minister of Beverly, Massachusetts.  He's already in the first minister of Beverly. He remains in Beverly until his death in 1700. Like your buddy over there, he marries three times.

Caitlin: That was just the number, I guess.

Frances: Everybody's married in three times.

Caitlin: Except Sarah. That was her second husband.

Frances: Okay, Cotton. was also married three times.

Caitlin: Everybody's just married three times.

Frances: His first wife was a woman named Rebecca Byley. His second wife was Sarah Noyes, the cousin of Nicholas Noyes, the reverend, and his third wife was Elizabeth Sombrey—Somery—Somerby…Elizabeth outlives him.

Caitlin: Okay.

Frances: The other two predecease him.

Caitlin: Okay.

Frances: I'm assuming he had kids, but I don't actually know. I didn't come across anything. He actually pops up in other witchcraft trial records around the same time, because he's obsessed. He takes extensive notes and apparently was there to take notes at all of the trial proceedings, the trials, the interrogations, everything. He was there for everything. Even though he had a full-time job being a minister in Beverley, he was just like, peace out. There's some witches over there.

Caitlin: People are horrible.

Frances: It's actually…it's so there's a weird story. Did you come across Dorcas Hoar?

Caitlin: No, but I want that name.

Frances: It's H-O-A-R like a hoarfrost. There's a weird story about her potentially robbing him and maybe torturing his kid. Oh, he did have children. He had his oldest daughter's name was Rebecca and she…

Caitlin: That just went from a two to a 10.

Frances: Yeah. So his maid, supposedly, according to legend, I don't know how true this is. I didn't actually get a chance to verify any of it. His maid, like was stealing a lot of money and stuff from him, including bags of flour and like a Pearl necklace Pearl by Pearl.

Caitlin: Okay.

Frances: Not really sure how that works, but okay. And when they were, when his family was away…sorry, he and his wife were away and they left the daughters, I guess—the kids in the care of the maid. The maid and Dorcas Hoar, like tortured the eldest daughter to be like: don’t tell your father we're stealing all this stuff from him. And like suspended her over a well and stuff. It was a whole situation, which he found out later when Dorcas Hoar was accused of witchcraft. But, so that was the whole thing. But so yeah, he's like obsessed with this whole situation, he's there for the whole thing and is in it to win it the whole time.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Frances: And then a few years after, uh, I think it's ’96. So 1696, he decides that he was wrong. They were all wrong. They weren't witches. It was the devil sending out the astral projections. They were actually demons in the form of innocent people. So the girls were afflicted and there was the devil in Salem. It just wasn't in the people in all—some of them were witches, but not all of them. Some of them were innocent and they made a mistake.

Caitlin: Yeah. He sounds horrible.

Frances: He wrote this book and then held onto it and had it published after his death.

Caitlin: All right.

Frances: So it was published in 1702.

Caitlin: So like kinda, sorta recant, but not at all.

Frances: Not really. And the reason they think he held off on publishing, this was because his cousin-in-law his second wife's cousin, Nicholas Noyes never recanted at all and was adamant that they were all witches the whole time,

Caitlin: Fuck that guy.

Frances: Yeah. So they were like: he didn't want to cause family strife by publishing this while he was still alive.

Caitlin: Whatever, go for it.

Frances: Yeah. So he didn't do the thing. I have a couple more profiles on individual judges, but there's also…I just, how about this? How about I give you some random facts about some individual judges and not like full profiles?

Caitlin: That sounds good, because I know we've just talked to everyone's ear off because there's so much here, which I do just want to give a shout out. If you want to listen to more on this, the first season of the podcast Unobscured is like 13 hours about the Salem witch trials. So keep this as like your sparks note version. If you want to get more, please, please listen to that.

Frances: And if you are looking for a book or two to read on it, uh, Stacy Schiff’s The Witches is really good and Emerson, Baker's A Storm of Witchcraft. There's also really good.

Caitlin: All right. So give me these…these magic facts. There we go.

Frances: All right. Here's some magic facts. Samuel Sewell, one of the judges, was the only person to publicly apologize individually for what happened.

Caitlin: All right, go him.

Frances: He issued a public. He stood up in public someplace, I think, at a church and apologized.

So John Hathorne, who I believe is buried near the Danvers—Is he the one that who's buried near the Danvers—? No, he's buried in bearing point cemetery in actual Salem. Somebody is buried near Danvers, I believe.

Caitlin: Great. So that we do have burials for these people.

Frances: Yes. The judges all have actual burials. So Cotton Mathers in Boston, Reverend Hale’s in Beverley. Hathorne… I think he’s in Salem. I think he's actually buried in Salem Proper. I'm not sure. But yeah, so all of the…we have the burial sites with headstones and everything. They’re marked full extant and headstones. Cotton Mather’s is kind of a mess. So I think they reset it into concrete to try to protect it from decay.

But yeah, a couple of fun facts about John Hathorne, who was the ancestor of Nathaniel Hawthorne who actually apologized for his behavior. He was very zealous about persecuting these witches…these women and men, and one of the reasons they suspect he was so zealous about this was because he was potentially making money off of it. When somebody was convicted of witchcraft, the state confiscated their property.

Caitlin: I mean, that's the whole more weight thing.

Frances: Yup. And so there is an assumption that John Hathorne was actually receiving some of the property because it went to the court and then the court dispersed it to whoever. So there's some indication that he was receiving money.

Caitlin: So, you know, Frances, I actually have a fun fact for you.

Frances: Okay.

Caitlin: Do you remember how I told you that there is a cemetery next to the Memorial?

Frances: Yeah.

Caitlin: And I told you some of the people involved with the Salem witch trials could be buried there?

Frances: Yeah.

Caitlin: Witches aren’t, but Judge John Hathorne is.

Frances: Yeah.

Caitlin: I've seen his grave. It's actually really interesting because they've preserved it. It definitely fell apart and we'll post it on our social media too. But, before we end, I want everyone to think about this. The Memorial, which took 300 years to get.

Frances: Word.

Caitlin: Is within walking distance of the body of the man who was kind of responsible for, you know, killing them.

Frances: Yup. That's the whole thing. One more fun fact from me, did you know that all of the judges, except the chief justice, William Stoughton were related by marriage?

Caitlin: What?! No!

Frances: Every single one of the judges were related by marriage. So yeah, Corwin…It was… I was absolutely astonished when I ran across one of the books I was looking at had a family tree of this and they are all related. Because there was so many…there was so many sisters involved. Like everybody had this couple of sisters.

Caitlin: Yeah, that’s just…

Frances: Yep. Everybody. Yeah. It's obviously Cotton Mather wasn’t related… although he might actually be related to one of them as well. He was friends with all of them, but yeah, so they were, except William Stoughton who was unmarried and his sister didn't marry anybody related to any of these people, but so he was the only one, not connected to the rest of them.

They were all…which one of the books I was reading suggested that might actually have perpetuated the situation because none of them were going to risk family strife by disagreeing with the rest of them. Like no one was going to take that first step. So that's a fun fact.

Caitlin: Yeah. I just…I really feel like this whole, all of it, all of it can be summed up as everyone was terrible, because I mean, even the people who, you know, died were also not amazing people.

Frances: Yeah….Yeah. Some of them were like: okay, that's Giles Corey don't murder people maybe.

Caitlin: It came down to…What it came down to was hysteria from mass—mass hysteria, little girls being impressionable and, and basically fear as well as, you know, property.

Frances: It was definitely fear. It was definitely property. You know what? I don't know that it was, I don't know that it was young girls being impressionable so much as, as teenage girls, exercising power in a society that gave them none of the power. Women, adult women had—

Caitlin: They were almost 11. They were 9 and 11.

Frances: And then some of the girls, one of them was Mercy—whatever her name was—was like 15.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Frances: They were like nine to teenagers.

Caitlin: So the mean girls?

Frances: Yeah, basically. But they were…maybe they read Cotton Mather's book and saw these girls in Boston exercising agency. They were doing things. They were in court when they weren't supposed to be, they were getting—making things happen around them to men.

Caitlin: I mean, they still killed 20 people.

Frances: 100%.

Caitlin: Okay.

Frances: It was…I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying, I think maybe part of the reason that the girls kept doing it and it got bigger and bigger and bigger was because other people were seeing…other younger girls, other women were seeing like agency being taken in a way that they weren't allowed it normally and it just ended up being like it snowballed

Caitlin: Possible.

Frances: One of the things I looked at made a good point. Made a good point that I had never considered before. If one person involved had made a different choice, then it never would have happened. If one of the judges said no, if one of the reverends had been like, this is ridiculous. Stop. If one of the accusers had said, no, we're lying.

Caitlin: I mean, that did happen though, but it was just not from people in Salem.

Frances: I'm saying if somebody involved

Caitlin: Oh like involved? Yeah.

Frances: If any of the people involved had just made a different choice…

Caitlin: Yeah.

Frances: This wouldn't have happened. It took all of them making the choices that they made to do this.

Caitlin: So, I mean, really what it comes down to here is one choice. Your choice can save lives, but also, I just want to like give a call out of how much of this was covered up.

Frances: Oh yeah.

Caitlin: In the 1690s.

Frances: Oh, yeah. The first government American government coverups.

Caitlin: Oh, I'm sure it wasn't the first close to one of the first. One of like one of the first five.

Frances: Yeah.

Caitlin: But with that, thank you everyone for joining us today, as we traveled to pro Salem proper, as well as old Salem, Peabody, and back to Danvers. As always, we'll see you in the cemetery.

OUTRO MUSIC

Caitlin: Grave Escapes is hosted, written and produced by Caitlin Howle and Francesgrace Ferland and is produced and edited by Jesse D. Crichton. The music is melancholy after sound by Kai Engel. Follow us on social media to see images of today's graves and more about us. Our social handle is Grave Escapes. For a transcript, show notes, and land acknowledgement, visit us online at www.graveescapes.com We'll see you in the cemetery.

Frances: We’d like to acknowledge that we recorded this podcast on the traditional lands of the Wampanoag, Pokanoket, and Narragansett peoples. Here in the Northeast and all across the country, native peoples are still here and thriving. For more information about indigenous history, we’ve added a link in the show notes to An Indigenous People’s History of the United States as a place to begin. For ways to support native leaders and communities, we’ve added links to both the North American Indian Center of Boston and Native Land Conservancy.